Unlogged in User:62.178.220.23, why are you changing links from Toltec to Toltecs? If there is a good reason for doing so, please explain, thanks. -- Infrogmation 15:55, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)If you plan to split the article, please mention so at least on the summary of your edits, or even better here in the talk page. Dori | Talk 15:59, Dec 18, 2003 (UTC)Below from User Talk:Dori:Hi Dori. I am trying to seperate the article about the mesoamerican culture from Castaneda's concept, which hasn't much to do with it. The article about the culture will be found under Toltecs, the article of Castaneda's concept under Toltec. I am now adjusting the links. -- 62.178.220.23 15:57, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)As "Toltec" is also commonly used for the Pre-Columbian Mesoamerican culture, I don't think this is a good idea. Either both concepts should go in the same article, or if there is some necessary reason, "Toltec" can be made a disambiguation page (though I doubt that's needed). I will duplicate this talk at Talk:Toltec, and suggest that further discussion go on there. -- Infrogmation 16:02, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)Sorry, I really should have mentioned this before (I didn't think this would arouse so much reaction): I have now made a new article Toltec (Castaneda). -- 62.178.220.23 16:18, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)That looks good to me. -- Infrogmation 16:24, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)Hi Infrogmation, Thanks for cleaning my mess. I will try to put my ideas more clearly, before writting them :)I am looking for documentation in enlgish for the Torescano tesis, but so far i have found nothing. Do you think info like this would be useful? http://www.embamex.co.uk/update/sept96/academic.html http://www.embamex.co.uk/update/april97/floresca.htmlAltough he tesis has not been fully accepted, if he is corrected, it would require a mayor reevaluation of prehispanic history. But i am nos shure is is correct to includ this.Nanahuatzin 10:49, 2 Jan 2004 (UTC)For the time being I moved the below 2 paragraphs here from the main article:Today the debate has started again, started by the Mexican Historian Enrique Florescano, from the Mexican Academy of History, with some speciallist from the CIT (Center of Teotihuacan Studies). Florescano has claimed for years that Teotihuacan was the first Tollan, his point of view has benn slowlly acepted by mexican historians.The magnificent frescos of Cacaxtla show fine artestry of the Mesoamerican Post-Classic era.Basically, his tesis is that Teotihuacan is Tollan, and the original the toltecs. He believes the excavations in teotihuacan will reveal the burial of the real Quetazlcoatl. I will try to make a fair resume of his work, and the opinions of other speciallist. He is about to publish something new. Maybe i will be better to wait a little.Maybe you will find this interesting: http://www.jornada.unam.mx/2003/abr03/030401/quet-tollan.htmlI introduced cacaxtla, since the frescos shows some of the history of the fall of teotihucan, but now i think is irrelevant here, just i was a bit confused on how to structure the info. I will try to get something write about it.Nanahuatzin 23:14, 2 Jan 2004 (UTC)I would like to see some evidence substantiating the assumption that "Toltecs" spoke Nahuatl or indeed any other language. It is not known what language was spoken by Toltecs, it is not known which language was spoken by the population of Teotihuacan. And it is particularly speculative that they had any connection.--Someoneelse 21:09, 16 July 2006 (UTC) The toltecs and their languageThere is no evidence as to which language the Toltecs spoke. It is reasonable to assume that they spoke nahuatl because many people in that general area do so. But they could have spoken many different languages. Most likely if Toltecs are understood as the builders of Tula Hidalgo they were Huastecs, (mayans). Mot likely if toltecs were from teotihuacan they spoke nahuatl. However there is not really any solid foundations for considering toltecs an ethniuc group. The only sources we have to their existence are mythical and symbolical, not actual history. In aztec culture toltecs were a symbol of knowledge and culture and they were in contrast with the concept chichimeca which symbolises the savage, warlike and primitive. This is also the reason that the nahuatl sources assume that the toltecs spoke nahuatl and that they spoke the highstatus pillahtolli version and not like peasants. And it is also the reason that they assume that chichimeca just babbled. Popoloca means babbling or talking without making sense, the aztecs used this term for *all* non-nahuan languages, according to the florentine codex nahuatl part Cortes spoke popoloca for example. The feature of believing in a higy developed ancestor culture coming from a place meaning "the reed place" (tollan in nahuatl) is pan mesoamerican, mixtecs, mayas etc believed this which makes it still more likely that it is a mythologicalisation of the actual historicasl ancestoirs of the m esoamerican cultures such as teotihuacanos or olmecs, but it also means that myth is so intertwined with the representations of these "toltec" cultures that it is impossible to separate myth from reality in them. This article seems to be under a completely different impression fo what the word toltec means and refers too. I only cut the parts about language because I am interested in the factuality of the linguistic informations. But I do suggest that you check up on your sources to find out what is actually known about the Toltecs and that you tone down the thought that the Toltecs were an actual ethnic group quite alot (it is possible that they were but it is by no means a fact). --Maunus 09:07, 27 July 2006 (UTC)I do not agree that popoluca refer mainly to chocho. There are one present day language called popoluca and a language group called popolocan neither of them is chocho (chocho is a popolocan language as is mazateco but neither is called popoloca. popoluca is a zoquean language and not otomanguean)(obviosuly this shows that many languages were called popoloca because spaniards asked their aztec allies "what language is spoken here?" and the answer was "popoloca" a strange language. And the spansih kept that name) The florentine codex uses popoloca to describe spanish. In many modern nahuan dialects it means sensless babble. Having read at different occasions the tolteca chichimeca I dont recall seeing any chocho written in that, nor do i know of any other early sources of written chocho. Also be religious worship cannot be uswed as evidence for the toltecs speaking any language in particular. Mayans can be said to worship quetzalcoatl for example. Only they call him k'ukulka:n in yucatecan or gukumatz' in quiché: maya words with the same meaning "feathered serpent". Also the tolteca chichimeca is not a reliable historical source and should not be used as such it is a mythical relation that may or may not be based on actual historics facts and which we have to use arguments from other sources in order to use as basis for understanding of which parts are fictive and which arent.I do agree however that the article needs more work though, and that it would be a very good idea to have a description of the strictly archeological record (although this is indeed problematic as well) and a section on the toltec as a mythological concept. Also you ar obviously aware of the problems that scientific description of the toltecs pose (anything from chochos to huastecs is proposed), there is in fact no agreement or "widely accepted standpoint" on the subject as of now, and the article does not reflect this situation. --Maunus 21:10, 27 July 2006 (UTC)--Maunus 09:49, 28 July 2006 (UTC)